Recently, we travelled to Ancienne Belgique in Brussels for a special double bill evening with John Also Bennett and Sam Dunscombe. Both performers succeed in creating an intense atmosphere, which prompts images to appear before your retina that stimulate the imagination. Sam Dunscombe also recently released her debut, another disc that appeals to the imagination. Enough food for a fine conversation, we had this interview on a Saturday morning in Berlin, unfortunately not face to face but via ZOOM. You can read the report of this fine gig again here .

Sam, let's start with a standard question, how did everything start, who and what are your sources of inspiration? and how did you end up in that special world of, let's say experimental electronic music?

My first inspirations came from pop music actually. I started playing Clarinet when I was 12 years old. I was always interested in using music and performance as a way of expressing myself. I’m Classical trained, but I found out that Classical music is not the best tool for me. I got into the more experimental music, because it give me a way to try new things out. Mixing and matching the stuff I’m interested in, I find in that possibility in more experimental music. As for Electronics… I have seen some powerful musicians when I was around 18, living in Melbourne (Australia) I really got interested into that sort of music because it had this sort of physical or material power. I wanted to experiment with that and try to understand it. Why the feeling in my body was so strong, for example, even when the sound was very quiet (I’m not necessary talking about noise music, although I make that too). When I started in this area, I stared to play music with people of the same age, and they had a lot stuff like effects pedals, synthesisers, microphones, and mixing tables and things, I not had anything of that. I was in some pop bands that days, and learnt a lot from that experience, that was how I earned my money, but it wasn’t a lot. So I saved up over half a year to buy a computer, and I started to learn computer programming for music, that’s how I start to get with Electronics. I figured if I could learn to program, I didn’t need to buy all the electronic pieces. I’m glad I did start that way because it give me the chance to find out how everything works, to learn about signal processing etc. That’s the way it started.

I wanted to pick in on you say silence into music, I’m very interested in Brian Eno. Like you say, you can make Electronic music or silence. I can hear that in you music to, just like Brian Eno did, you can make the silence in music so strong that it blow you away I see that correct? Is that also how you doing it?

That inspiration for doing it this way come from a few different experiences: playing new music, working with Wandelweiser composers and aesthetics, and also Japanese improvisers when I lived in Tokyo. The rime of Silence is something that you can do in a room. The other one is I have done some field recording. Field recording is particularly interesting in places that feel silent, because really there’s no such thing - the “silence” is a quality of ambience. The stillness you find in such places, I’m very interested… so yes, ideas of stillness, silence, and stasis are very important to me…

It’s not that  I can’t  put a music style, that’s what I like about you. But  How would you describe your musical style by the way? Why Clarinet?

My music style? Running in five directions at the same time is a short and direct description about my music style, I guess. I play things that are pretty much based in free improvisation, both noisey and very quiet. I also make spectral and just intonation music, and using something like acoustic walls. I feel it’s a very stylistic trend in Berlin at the moment, to work with intonation, but my interest comes more from the field of spectralism and also from natural acoustic phenomena you encounter in field recording sometimes, than it does from the tradition of Just Intonation composers. The music I make is just extremely eclectic, and I guess it’s just whatever I’m interested at the time being. And that changes all the time…

I love your music, but is it not true that it’s not easy to bring this in big stadium or something, Not that this is you ambition anyway I guess. But, Doesn't that limit the audience you can reach? A wide audience or radio feedback would be nice,?

That’s a interesting question actually. There is a attitude in experimental music sometimes like ‘fuck the audience’ But I don’t feel that way. One of the things I love is to build an association with the audience. Having feedback, and have the sense of being together in a space where everyone who is there enjoy it, including myself. So the audience is important to me, but I guess it’s the size of that audience doesn’t matter to me. When there are enough people than I’m happy, that can be 200 or 50 or 5. In my 20s I played in some bands, and played for really big crowds.  For 2000 people, sometimes 10,000, it’s a very different energy that you get. It’s not that you are more disconnected when there are that many people. But when I play for let’s say 50 people I feel that everyone in the room is included in what happens. But when you have 10 000 you see the people in the front room that dancing and having the time of their lives, you still only really feel a connection to the 50 people directly in front of you, really. But you feel you can’t reach everyone, that is the big different I guess.

 Some things I have read at your website. You earned a DMA from UC San Diego in 2018, and works as the archivist to the estate of French-Romanian composer Horatiu Radulescu. Can you tell something more about that?

In the experimental music Horatiu Radulescu was one of the biggest artists during his life, but there is not a lot of his work available at the moment, especially not when I started to work with his music. Some things that are available are more like some acoustic noise music or something, very aggressive.  Even when it’s delicate and quiet it has this roughness inside. Maybe not real aggression but intensity. I got interest in his music a long time ago. I decided to make a version of a piece of his music  with clarinet. I wanted to put multiple sounds together with masses of similar instruments. If you have 7 clarinets playing multiphonics, the spectra can be very complex, with 20, 30, or more parts. So there is that intensity and relationship to space in his music that triggers me. So when I was making this work, I been contacting his widow (Horatin Radulescu died in 2008). I told her I was working on his music and would like to meet her. We became friends pretty quickly. So now I work to help republish his music, and make it available again. And fixing up old tapes, digitising his materials, and stuff like that. That’s how I got into that job.

Talking about available, it’s not easy to find something of you music either, except on bandcamp, but not at Spotify to give a example?

No, there is an album coming out somewhere in march 2022. On Mode Records. It will be called “Horatiu Radulescu: plasmatic music volume one’’ there are three works on them. One is for 7 clarinets, one is for 42 clarinets and 42 flutes together, and one is a “posthumous duo” with Radulescu, where I remix old tape recordings he made and add a lot of new material on the synthesiser. And well maybe that will end up on Spotify… But yes, in 2022, I think there will be some more stuff coming available!

I look forward to that,. I have read. Also you interested in the multi-dimensional perception of time, which has led to explorations in spectralism, just-intonation, improvisation, the performance of complex-notated repertoire, field recording, audio engineering, and live electronic performance. Can you tell more about this to?

I’m very interested in that moments on a performance when it seems that time stops. That’s a feeling that you get when those then minutes of a song not sound long , but very short. Or sometimes the opposite, a minute stretches out forever. It’s something very special when that happens. Even better is when you feel both long and short at the same time. It would happen in those pieces of music that are two hours long. I got into this by playing long form works by Morton Feldman, Horatiu Radulescu, Pierluigi Billone, and others. There are a number of ways this sense of timelessness can happen - sometime with tuning (“perfect” intonation - although of course that’s kind of impossible - is timeless as there are no markers of temporality in there), this with long duration, or with intense focussed listening at different dynamics, the feeling of being overwhelmed, and so much more. And with new complexity also, there’s a common interest in trying to portray multiple timelines / time scales at the same time (maybe someone like Chikako Morishita or Richard Barrett for example do this). And in field recording you have the experience of displacing times (reliving the past, but listening in a different situation, etc etc).

Well, I was really interested to think about what exactly it might be that tied all of this stuff together, and I realised that what was interesting me about all these different types of work was that it alters your sense of how time passes quite drastically.

Something very interesting to find out. The reason of this interview. You recently released your album ‘Outside Ludlow/Desert Disco, there's a special story behind it (that's something we can also read in the biography) but tell us more about that special trip?

I Lived in California for seven years. I did a lot field recording and camping all around the State. One of my other projects in that direction will be released in the middle of next year, based on a lot of field recordings of California. So in 2018 I was out camping and recording in the desert with my good friend Joe Mariglio. We went to an old mining town, completely abandoned, and not much left. There was once a gold mine, and it was next to the railway and route 66 as well. The gold mine is still full of gold but for some reason company figured out the gold is more valuably when you keep in the ground (haha). It’s strange, they still keep buying and selling it but they just don’t take it out, I do not understand the world sometimes (haha).

But anyway it’s for me  a very poetic place because of all this levels you see there. The different times people lived there and basically failed. In the 19the century there were looking for minerals, in the begin 20ths there was the railway, and they had to build a big water tank. You see human activity starting and stopping there over and over again, with these moments of failure repeatedly captured over and over again in time, and then they just kind of disintegrate. You can see that in those places how it happened, and that is very interesting to see; that’s also expressive for the South California project in general. Because that’s something that keeps happening, it’s very likely that a lot of the cities and growth there will die soon in the future, as there’s simply no water there, no way to really sustain life.

But the fact that people keep try and failed was very important to me to create this field recording album. I wanted to make people feel that to. That’s the backstory why I was so excited about this place.

So that’s the backstory. Then as we were camping there, we were walking through the remnants of this town, and then out into the open desert a little. And suddenly I saw tangled around a cactus, this big ball of 1/4” tape. Kind of an unbelievable find for a sound artist! So I immediately grabbed as much as I could - it was in really bad shape, falling apart really, it must have been there for a very long time.

Did you find the owner of those tapes by the way?

No, that would be totally impossible I think. When you look at the LP cover, just on the left of the photo is where we found the tapes. And as you can see there is nothing there but desert. It’s been abandoned for about 40 years now, since that mine shut. I realized it had some Disco music on it, so I think it’s something from about 1978 or something.

I liked the feeling that I was on that trip to, very intensify , little bit scary but specially overwhelming. Is that how you wanted to do this? To make people feel it this way?

That scary feeling is a little bit like what you feel there in that place. It’s not that you are not welcome, but this place just doesn’t care about you or something. It feels like you are irrelevant up there. Just another ant in the desert… It’s like you walk in a forest and been overwhelmed because it beautiful and you feel surrounded, or walk on the beach and see the size of the water and feel a sense of awe and also a sense of lightness or elevation. And in the desert you feel that you are just a little spot on the planet, so small and so fragile. Emotionally I was also impressed by the sadness of this places. Where people just try, and failed, over and over again. That feeling I wanted to bring in my music, and also on stage. And that can be overwhelming or scary for people, but scary is not the right word…

I also had this feeling that this music could be made for a film or TV Series, are there any plans in that direction? Or did you have done it before and want do it again?

I did some soundtracks in collaboration with a few people: a filmmaker called OB de Alessi, together with my band Golden Fur, with my partner Michiko, and also I have done some things by myself in this direction. I think I will be working with people in Seattle next year to make a movie as well. I actually have done several things I suppose, and I’m very interested in the link between sound and image. If you do it right, you can create this feeling in between disconnected and connected, and sort of put the viewer in a strange relationship to space. That’s what I want to do.

That’s something I missed about the wonderful concert, the connection between visuals and music. It would be much more impressive then it was already, with using visuals on a screen I think. It’s maybe something to use in the future on you concerts?

Defiantly, when I take the Field recordings I make some video’s too, just in case. So that’s for sure something I’m interested in. I love  the films of James Benning, if you know him. You can find some illegally uploaded on YouTube of his work calling ‘The California trilogy’ it’s a film on different locations all over California (but the quality is very bad, if possible watch it in the cinema or at least on dvd to get the real experience!). One about farming, one about the dessert and one about the city. I see that in 2016 and it was a massive influence doing something myself, what I did on this record. Those visuals it’s like that experience of time I was talking about, in this case I think it comes from the structural limits he placed on himself to make the film. For me personal it’s even sometimes heartbreaking just watching it, and that certainly has to do with the fact that I’ve been there, but more than that it is just so beautiful to see this sort of mosaic of different locations slowly unfolding, so beautifully shot. Soo yes it’s something I’m very interested in.

How where the reactions till now?

Honesty I normally don’t expect anyone to be interest in my work at all. So it was a big surprise for me, all this positive reactions. I love to share it and make it. But I assume that what I’m doing is not interesting for a lot of people. So it’s a very nice surprise that I get some good reviews , or people like you contact me for an interview. Or if someone contacts me and says they enjoyed listening to my music. All these reactions are surprising and touching. The LP sold out on bandcamp pretty soon, so I guess it proves that people are interested in what I’m doing… Particularly this LP has an interesting story, I guess it captures people’s imagination. But I’m just happy to share it.

You live in Berlin, a city that appeals to my personal imagination, is it really such a city that provides inspiration, some of my personal idols like David Bowie have made their most memorable works there?

There is a lot to say about Berlin. For the Germans it’s a place where the people can go to create. It’s a place where the artists and party animals and weirdos will go. There is something magic in the air that is creative and give you energy. Personally I think the reason why it’s so inspiring is that everyone believe the story. People just move here to be creative and productive. The collective belief in this city is proving the prophesy. In a way, I not sure there is something special about Berlin, it just happens to be the place where things going on. Socially they do a lot to support the arts and culture, and generally I feel like it’s a place where you can imagine a new way of living and then actually just do it. It’s one of the only places in the world where you can be a professional artist and survive well, the city supports this, and they are also very supportive to artists with children. Also in this pandemic the city was very supporting there artists. There is a sense of security here for artists, something I never had in Australia for example.

It’s what confuses me the most , when there is a new problem with COVID the first thing they close is culture, very confusing.

Yes, and still businessman get to travel over the world and having fancy dinners in New York.(haha) Look, I think music and Art is a form where people feeling satisfied and happy without consuming too much. Other situations they encourage people to buy things. That capitalism encourages to buy things they don’t need to full that big hole in themselves (haha) and in art and music it’s not a way of real consuming things, that’s why they closed down first, before say a shopping mall with thousands of customers. What art and culture brings is people to make fulfilled and satisfied, and I hope that in the future this can become a important part to continue after this pandemic.

Now we start talking about that subject. like everyone else in this world, you also have been living in this pandemic, how did you survive as person and musician?

I think a lot of people had the same experience. You very quickly get confronted with yourself. All those things you ignored in the past, because you keep being busy. But then you sitting home and been confronted with those thoughts you have ignored because you simply had no time to think about it. It makes you think about your life and relevant everything. There also was a difference between people who had to care of someone (like children or older parents or sick partners etc), and people who living alone. Not sure what experience is more worse then the other. It’ s not a competition because we all had a terrible time. But.. my experience, I have a daughter and she was 2 years old. In the start of the pandemic we lived in a small apartment, we moved to a bigger place. It was so overwhelming to be in a place 24hours for five weeks or something, that I realize I not had time for myself to think anymore. That was the hard part of it…

Did this times give you some more inspiration, or not really?

I started to focus on recording music in that times. But that’s common to other musicians I think. There is in the past 16 months and more, a lot music has been released. More than ever. Also because a lot artists can’t tour anymore. Next to release new music, people get to be more experimental in their own homes. There been some strange records coming out where I like to listen to. For me personally, it gave me the permission to make mistakes, because I did not have to rush for something, and when you take risks you make more mistakes, so in regular life often you don’t take risks. But when you DO take risks you can find something that’s interesting to work with, something you didn’t think about before. That’s the inspiration this pandemic give to me. Allowed me to listen to my own intuition more.

Can you tell some more about other future projects? What are you future plans?

There is been a project I been working on for five or six years now, thirty-three field recordings from South California. Also, I did research and composition into music for use with psychedelic drugs (in psychotherapy), not that I have done this specific therapy (although I have taken psychedelic drugs, and read about them a lot). Honestly I found out the music used by the psychiatrists was pretty terrible. I created something with that, and will bring it to the audience in both an LP, and as a touring project. You don’t have to take the drugs to enjoy it, though, and I hope it’s interesting for everyone! And there is the Radelescu cd coming out. There is a big group with other musicians in Berlin, that’s an ongoing project. That’s one thing good about the pandemic btw. For the first time we were all in the same place because of the lockdown, so you could easy do rehearsals with large groups of people who are usually always touring and moving around. Let us hope it leads to interesting work as well, those cooperations. And of course returning to playing on stage in the ‘normal’ way. A lot is going to happen, but I have no idea when. But nothing ever stops, things keep moving.

One of my last questions, what are you future ambitions is there any end goal ore something you want to achieve?

It’s particularly interesting to think what I am  going to do when I finish this work? The Radulescu music I’ve been working on since 2015, the California recordings since 2016. The psychedelic music since 2019/2020… I’ve been working on these projects for many years, and they’re all coming out in 2022. What’s next? I’m a little bit excited to think about what I’m going to do next. What for me important is for me, I just like sharing. One thing I can say about myself is that I never seem to hold one line or direction for very long. Everything changes, and I hope it will keep changing in the future… I love learning and discovering new things, working in different areas. So it’s something that keeps me busy, that question, because at the moment I don’t know what’s next… Maybe I’ll make a pop record! But like I said, it’s the need to keep sharing that keeps me going. 

I don’t think you a artist who keep doing the things over and over again 40 years or longer that’s for sure?

When I was a kid, one of my inspirations was Prince. On a certain moment he was stop caring what anyone thought about him. He made some wonderful stuff, and some terrible. But he always tried something new, and invented himself over and over again. I respect that, that’s what I want to do in my life. Also, Something interesting, and pity about Prince, he died too young but the last two last albums he made started to exploring a new direction again, what would have been interesting to see where it brings him.

Soo please become Prince, but please live much longer to…Thanks for this nice conversation, I hope to see you on stage soon again